🎙️Episode 9: Why You Should Never Use Pros & Cons Lists Ever Again

This post should have been titled, "'Don't go in the church, you moron!' And Other Tips for Better Decision Making."

Yes, that was Dave’s punchline. And no, we’re not over it.

You’ve probably faced one of those messy, overwhelming decisions—buying a house, choosing between job offers, figuring out where to eat on Taco Tuesday. (Some choices are harder than others.)

This episode, the grand finale in our “5 Things You Need to Know About Decision Making” series, zooms in on a game-changing concept: Decision Criteria.

Specifically, the difference between Musts and Wants.

A must is a dealbreaker. It’s a non-negotiable. If an option doesn’t meet your musts, it’s out. Doesn’t matter how charming, how shiny, or how much your Aunt Peggy raves about it.

A want, on the other hand, is a preference. You’ll score it, weigh it, prioritize it—but it’s not the thing that makes or breaks the decision.

From Ashley’s story about buying a home to Dave’s consulting tale about a multimillion-dollar Boeing-related decision, we explore how identifying your musts early can save you time, money, stress, and possibly your marriage (or at least your Sunday afternoons spent arguing about acreage).

🎙️In this episode, here’s what you’ll walk away with:

• How to tell if something’s really a must… or just a highly emotional want

• Why pros and cons lists often lead to decision fatigue instead of clarity

• How to set up your “decision scorecard” using both logic and intuition

Bonus:

• Hear how our clients used this to decide where to move an entire manufacturing operation

• Discover why Ashley once considered living in a pool house or moving back in with her parents

• Stay till the end for another terrible joke from Dave, per usual.

👉Whether you’re weighing career moves, home purchases, or giant corporate projects, this episode gives you the clarity to move forward—without regret. Listen to Episode 9 now!

Listen or Watch This Episode:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube

🔗 Resources Mentioned

• Are you interested in learning your DiSC style? Get your profile here!

• Want to be a better decision maker in 20 minutes? Our e-book packs a punch! 5 Things You Need to Know About Making Decisions

• Is your team facing a complex decision? Book a workshop.

• Want to learn our decision making courses on demand? Check out our Decision Focus Course Suite.

We've included the transcript for your reading pleasure below.

Episode 9 | Is it a Must or a Want? | 5 Things You Need to Know About Decision Making

Ashley (00:02.798)

la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la

Dave (00:19.677)

La la la la la. What? Okay, well, I'll save my comment for when we go live.

Ashley (00:28.694)

We're on. I figured I had enough time waiting for you. I'm good. I'm so good. I wanna know, why are you overdressed? Like hasn't summer hit in Minnesota?

Dave (00:40.875)

Summer hit and then decided it had enough and departed quickly.

Ashley (00:45.454)

Deuces!

Dave (00:48.797)

And as I speak, we're on our second inch of rain and struggling to get to 45 degrees. Yeah, yeah, it's like I got a river outside. A river's running through it. A river's running through my front yard.

Ashley (01:04.376)

Brad Pitt in his hot days. Let's talk about that. my gosh.

Dave (01:09.304)

Yeah, yeah, let's not talk about that. Let's instead talk about your outfit. Is this your Ode to Cleopatra? Is that what this is today? Ode to Cleopatra.

Ashley (01:20.192)

Yes, yes, you know, if it's ruffly and feminine, it's kind of my vibe. And I've had it for about a year and I've worn it three times. Haven't washed it yet because like, how do you even wash this? You can't, you can't. So it's just...

Dave (01:36.395)

You can't. Well, you take it out back and you hose it down.

Ashley (01:41.902)

And then you line dry it.

Dave (01:42.785)

That's what you do with it. Yeah. And then just.

Ashley (01:51.331)

I don't iron. I don't want to iron it. That's the thing. I'm like, is it wrinkly? I don't know. We can only see me from this half up anyway. It's fine.

Dave (01:59.997)

I ironed a shirt for the first time in about five years over the weekend because we went to this gala for the leukemia and lymphoma society. I won't give you the whole background of it, but yeah, our friends, Tim and Terry, who you're going to meet in a future episode or a past episode, Tim, anyway, they bought a table at the leukemia and lymphoma society because they have a good friend who recently was declared cancer free from stage four lymphoma.

Ashley (02:16.376)

Yeah.

Ashley (02:25.982)

Yay!

Dave (02:27.901)

And so they had a big gala and so yeah, I had to wear a coat and tie and everything. And I'm like, okay, where's my ties? Oops, better buy one. Okay, where are my dress shirts? Oops, better buy one. And then, oops, dress shirt comes, I gotta wash it. Oops, I got iron it. Where's the iron? I don't know, let's find it. So we had a great time.

Ashley (02:45.486)

And okay, listen, you haven't ironed because it's not like Mary is ironing it for you. It's because you haven't a need to wear clothes that are pressed. Is that correct?

Dave (02:56.625)

In that's correct. In my earliest days of my career, and I'm not going to bore you with this, but I worked in downtown Minneapolis at a different company, big company, and it was suit and tie every day. And so I had my like five suits, my Monday suit, my Tuesday suit, et cetera, and then the shirts and then the ties. And back then my buddy Bill and I, you're going to meet, I think you're going to meet Bill in a future episode. used to, for fun, this is how sad we were, that for fun,

On our lunch hour in downtown Minneapolis, we used to go down to Dayton's Department Store and look at neckties.

Like, yeah, this is what, that tied looked good. We're like a couple of girls. And...

Ashley (03:48.654)

We are living! We are expressing our creativity in the only way that we can right now.

Dave (03:53.377)

Yeah, yep. you know, so we'd find a time. Oh, this one's on sale. And so we get it. And then where at the next week go out to lunch, spill some gravy on it. And that was it. Okay, you know, $40 tie back then $40 tie was a big, big, big deal. Nope, it's going, you know, we're going to use it to do something else other than, you know, be a necktie. So that was that was then this is now I don't I literally own one necktie now. The one I wore some Saturday night.

Ashley (04:03.406)

Yeah, that was it.

Yeah!

Ashley (04:21.262)

And it's good enough and it's going to work for every single special occasion in your life now on. Yes, I remember you telling me back when you were pivoting in your career that I wanted to be able to not wear socks. And so I'm basing my life choices on this specific reason here.

Dave (04:27.487)

Yep. Yeah, that's right. Yep. Yes.

Dave (04:45.675)

That was my measure of success. My measure of success when I went from the corporate world to the world of our own business, entrepreneurship world, I told Mary, I probably told you too, right? That my definition of success isn't money or things. It's never having to wear socks on purpose. So, yeah. So if you saw my feet right now, no socks. Yeah, I am a raging success. No, okay.

Ashley (05:03.736)

Yes, never again.

Ashley (05:08.974)

Yes! You saw my feet right now. No shoes either. This is where we've come. We've come a long way to de-robing.

Dave (05:15.073)

Yeah, this is how far we've come. Yes, which brings us to thing number five of the five things you didn't know that you really do need to know about decision making or something like that, right? So these are like the old top 10 list. Let's count down, okay? So thing, and this is your quiz. You remember thing number one? I do.

Ashley (05:32.139)

Mm-hmm.

Ashley (05:41.164)

No.

Dave (05:44.609)

I better. Thing number one is what kind of decision are you facing? Remember that type one and type two decisions and all that. And then we talked about rapid roll. So if you're listening and you haven't seen thing number one, go see it or watch it or listen to it. So that was thing number one. And thing number two was what is your decision making fingerprint? What's your style? And we looked at it from two different points of view. We looked at it from

point of view if you're a maximizer or a satisficer that was one way of looking at it and we in the book we have a quiz that you can help you determine which one you are and then we also look at it from DiSC the profile that you and I have done many many many thousands of over the years and helped our customers yes and each DiSC style has its own unique you know sort of way it approaches decisions, so that was number two number three was

Ashley (06:16.609)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (06:39.785)

What are your decision-making fears? What do you fear about decision-making? If you don't like the word fear, then you could say, you know, what are your concerns when you're making important decisions? Or some people look at it as risks, you know, what are the risks? But we all have some things that we're sensitive to that can color our thinking. And that leads us to some kind of decision biases that we need to be aware of. So the only way you're gonna know if you are susceptible to one is to figure out where you stand in

Dave (07:09.449)

So we talk about that. And then number four is in order to be a great decision maker, you have to be non-binary. Remember that one? Yes, in order to be a great decision maker, have to be non-binary. And if you're curious about that as a listener, go listen to that one. Because that one actually is really good. The others were good. That one might even be great, in my humble opinion.

Ashley (07:21.87)

I remember that conversation.

Ashley (07:36.654)

The others were just okay in our humble opinion, but that one, that one was where it was at. You know what, know, thing three, the fears, that one was the one that really touched me. So to each their own. Yeah.

Dave (07:48.897)

Yeah, yeah, that was to each their own. That's right. No, they're all good. This one's really good. And today is thing number five. And the name of this one is this. It's a must that a must be a must. So try using the word. Try using the word must three times in one sentence.

It's a must that a must be a must. You know, you say it often enough and it gets to be one of those words that you're like, I don't even think must is a word anymore. Like, is it a word? That's weird. It must not be. Must, must. Okay?

Dave (08:20.839)

It must not be. It must, yeah, it's a must that it must be a must. And so what we're talking about here is this whole concept of decision criteria, okay? Now, last time we talked about your mind, not your mind and my mind, everybody's mind. We're really good at making comparisons. The mind is really good. We're kind of hardwired to make comparisons.

And the story I told is when I came home with a couple of different bottles of wine and had Mary, my wife, do a taste test, a blind taste test. had three different reds and I gave her the first one and I said, how's that taste? And she went, oh, that's good. And I said, okay, good or really good? Good. So then I gave her the second one. said, okay, taste this one. How's it compared to the first? And she goes, oh my gosh, better. Oh really? Okay. And then I gave her a third one and she said, well, that one isn't as quite as good as the other two. So here's my rankings.

Ashley (09:11.054)

Mmm.

Dave (09:17.609)

Number two is first, number one is second, number three is third. So your mind's great at comparing. In that case, we're only comparing on one factor, right? Taste, that was it. In real life, your decisions are, especially your more important decisions, like your biggie type two decisions or your maybe really important type one decisions, we're not just basing those on one factor, right? You're probably gonna be basing them on a lot of different factors.

Ashley (09:46.051)

Yes.

Dave (09:47.201)

Right. Yeah, many, many things. And so in during one of the episodes you asked me about the method of decision-making pros and cons because a lot of folks... Yeah, yep.

Ashley (09:56.79)

Right. Like making a pros and cons list, you mean? Like is it effective and no, it's not really?

Dave (10:02.305)

Yeah, so a lot of people go, well, you know, I've got this option over here versus that option over there. Let's do a pros and cons list. In fact, I've got a great example. I had a guy in class, this is about a year, year and a half ago, who was trying to help his son select a college to go to. And his son was an athlete, so he was getting some scholarship offers, which was awesome. And the son was trying to figure out which college to go to. so...

They said, well, let's do pros and cons. So, and I'm not going to name the universities, but you know, they're, they're all major D one universities, big time universities. And, and so they did a pros and cons list. Well, this university over here has got, you know, a great, you know, this guy's a football player, great football team, but it's located way over in the other side of the country. So that's a con because it's going to be hard for my parents to travel to, et cetera. They got done with their pros and cons list and they were like, I don't have a clue. So, yeah. So what?

Ashley (10:56.216)

So what, right? So what?

Dave (10:57.951)

because not all pros and cons are created equally, right? So if I have a list of this university and it's got seven pros and three cons, does that make it better than this other university that has 10 pros and six cons? I don't know, you know.

Ashley (11:13.088)

Right, right, because one pro may be a lot more important to me than these other two or three or four pros over here, right? Okay, okay.

Dave (11:22.719)

Right, exactly, exactly. So you have no way, you don't have a scorecard or a way to compare those universities against one another, much like Mary was comparing the wines based on that one criterion taste. And so what the beauty of criteria is, is that criteria is the scorecard that you can measure up alternatives against one another in a balanced and fair way.

Ashley (11:37.709)

Okay.

Dave (11:49.985)

So that's kind of concept number one is to create a criteria list, factors that are important in making the decision. And then principle number two is separate that list of factors, of criteria, into two categories. Category number one are musts and category number two are wants. And so we've heard these terms being thrown around all the time, musts and wants. So when we go about helping somebody make an important decision, the first thing we do is to make sure that the decision is stated in a way that creates options. We talked about that last time. And then once we figure out what that decision objective is, then we help the person with criteria list. OK, what are the important factors in making the decision? And then let's put those factors, once we figure out the list, put them in one of two categories, musts versus wants.

Ashley (12:48.247)

Okay?

Dave (12:48.481)

All right, so you're wondering about what differentiates a must from a want, right?

Ashley (12:53.654)

No, I'm actually thinking, okay, what are the decisions that I've made in my life, these big decisions, and did I actually do it that way? Because I don't think I did.

Dave (13:03.595)

So yeah, so let's talk about you've been in this house now for how many years, two years? Two years. So if we were hitting the rewind button and we were like, Ashley, yep, so Ashley is gonna buy house, okay. And so the decision statement would be something like choose best living situation for me. If that's where you started, then you might've been comparing like houses versus condos.

Ashley (13:09.102)

Two years almost, yes, yes.

Ashley (13:15.392)

huh, that's exactly what I was thinking about too.

Dave (13:32.809)

versus apartments or something like that but that you were pretty sure you were wanting to land on a home property. you weren't okay.

Ashley (13:35.884)

Yes.

I wasn't, I wasn't. Okay, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about that because I had to back up and say, choose best place for Ashley to live. And I had to be open to that because I wasn't sure I wanted to take a lot of money and dump it into a home. Okay, so I actually backed up and said, what is the best thing that I wanna do?

Dave (13:57.032)

okay. Alright.

Ashley (14:04.278)

with this money? Do I want to save it? Do I want to invest it? Do I want to put it into a house? Do I want to put it into something else? How secure and like fixed do I want to be? All right. So I had to be like, do I want to move in with my parents and save all my money? Do I want to build a pool house on somebody else's property and kind of have my own little zone there? Or do I want to buy a camper and kind of be flexible there? Or do I want to buy a house?

And all of that, right? Right, right? And that was during a time in my life where I had to make a lot of big choices at once and take some time to really discern what I wanted. And ultimately I had a friend say to me, I went over to her house for coffee and I'm looking at the way she's decorated this home and how it has been a community spot.

Dave (14:35.713)

Well, I'm glad I wasn't around for that.

Dave (14:45.355)

Sure, yeah, yeah.

Ashley (15:03.8)

for her friends to come over and for her to host them. And the way that she's done it is a way that it's just really beautiful and was inspiring to me. And she's like, Ashley, I think that you need your own home because you are so creative and you love to decorate and you love to bring people together. And I think that's really important to you. And I was like, okay. I think there's something there that I need to listen to.

Dave (15:28.137)

Okay.

Dave (15:32.777)

Yep. Yep. So what you're just describing is kind of this whole concept, and this might be for a different episode, but this whole concept of cascading decisions. So decision number one is choose what to do with my money. You mentioned that. And so you had some different ideas there and eventually you landed on, I want to invest that money in property in some kind of real estate. Okay.

Ashley (15:41.495)

Yeah.

Ashley (15:45.175)

Ooh, okay.

Ashley (16:00.344)

Yes. Yes.

Dave (16:00.661)

Then that's so that cascaded down to decision number two, choose best real estate option to invest my money and have a place to live. Okay. And, and there you were probably looking at things that you could buy, right? you mentioned that. Okay. And eventually you landed on this opportunity to purchase a home because of that creativity factor. And so that was decision number three. All right. Now of all the things I could invest my money in real estate wise.

Ashley (16:04.013)

Yes.

Ashley (16:07.746)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (16:30.081)

Home is where I'm going. Now you've got decision number four. You may not realize that this, are already in the number four here by the time you started looking at homes, but now I know.

Ashley (16:41.294)

No wonder I was tired!

Dave (16:46.902)

this wasn't all in one day, was it? No.

Ashley (16:53.688)

course of three to six months.

Dave (16:55.017)

Yeah, yeah, yep. And big decision, type two decision, right? So yeah, you want to make sure you got it right. So now you're at choose best home for me. Now here's where things probably get a little bit more interesting, right? Because now you've got some criteria you're probably looking at, okay? And so here's my definition, not my, but our definition of a must, okay? You talk about musts and wants. So musts are the mandatory,

Ashley (16:58.786)

Yes, yes.

Ashley (17:05.762)

Mm-hmm, yes.

Ashley (17:14.285)

Yes.

Dave (17:25.467)

non-negotiable minimum requirements of your decision. So musts basically are those things that are mandatory. You can't live without them. And in fact, if an alternative doesn't meet a must, you don't look at it because they're the minimum requirements. So musts in the case of a home are probably things like money.

Ashley (17:43.182)

you

Ashley (17:50.882)

Yes! Yes!

Dave (17:51.067)

X amount or cheaper, whether it's total price or whether it's monthly or however you're measuring the money component. They might be specs, specifications like minimum two bedroom or maximum X number of feet. They might be something like that. They might be time related, must be able to occupy by X, close by X. Maybe that's a must, maybe it's a one. It could be location.

Okay. So from time to time, we'll help people with home purchases and so just not the purchase itself, but the criteria. like there might be some folks who are raising kids and they say, well, we want to be in this school district. And is that a want or a must? It's a must. We need to be in this school district. Okay. Then that's a location related must. So for you, when you were thinking about buying the home, were there any hard musts?

Ashley (18:21.902)

Mm-hmm.

Ashley (18:40.641)

Right.

Ashley (18:52.942)

As you were listing all of this out, I felt like I was so fluid and kind of moving back and forth between a must versus a want, but I wasn't really sure until I started exploring the options, right? So the big thing, so I'm creative enough to be able to make a lot of things work no matter what. But the big thing for me was I wanted to be near downtown.

Dave (19:05.237)

Yep. Sure.

Ashley (19:19.158)

I wanted to be in the heart of everything, or at least aspirationally, that's where I felt like my heart was pulling me. Every time I've ever lived on my own in the past 25 years, it was always near the restaurants, near the coffee shops. My family lived 20 minutes away. And so I really despised having to drive 15, 20 minutes to get anywhere. And so that's where my heart was calling me. And I feel like that was the one must.

Dave (19:24.373)

Hmm? Yep.

Dave (19:48.545)

So you probably, yeah, and you probably had an outer limit that you probably intuitively knew, like I can't be more than 10 minutes from downtown, or I can't be more than X amount of miles from downtown. And if I start getting way out, then I start really getting a little wiggy about looking at those homes, right?

Ashley (19:48.972)

that I definitely kind of stuck with.

Ashley (20:01.536)

Yes.

Right.

Ashley (20:11.47)

Right, so when we were actually looking for properties, there were two homes right in the heart of downtown that I was like, okay, I love these, but let me explore the ones that are like seven minutes away in a subdivision. Let me see if I like that. Let me explore the one that's in a downtown of a different city that's 10 minutes away. Can that feel good for me? But ultimately I was like, no, I wanna be in downtown Hammond.

Dave (20:36.373)

Yep. Yeah. So whether or not you stated it as a must, was a biggie. OK? And you probably had a point where you said, any property that's outside this certain zone that I have in my mind, I'm going to disqualify because it's too far out. Yep.

Ashley (20:41.526)

Right. Mm-hmm.

Ashley (20:54.25)

Exactly. And by me disqualifying that, it left me with two. Two homes that were available and on the market.

Dave (20:58.581)

OK, great. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Now you probably also had another must related to money, right? But yeah. Yep. And sure.

Ashley (21:08.468)

So let's talk about that. So one home was much more expensive, but it gave me some options that maybe I could rent it because it was closer to the college, right? So it was more of an investment that I was looking into. And the other home, this one, was a lot less expensive, but a little bit further out, not in the exact location, kind of an up and coming neighborhood.

Dave (21:36.801)

share. Yep. And so here's the question I would ask to figure out whether or not that was a must. Could you swing financially both of those properties? they work?

Ashley (21:38.05)

That's kind of what I was dealing with.

Ashley (21:48.064)

I could have, but I would have been strapped.

Dave (21:53.087)

All right, yep. So you were kind of teasing, okay, what's that upper limit that fits not only my ability, but my comfort level. Yeah, yep. And that ended up being a really important criterion. Maybe a must or maybe a really, really, really important want. Yeah.

Ashley (22:11.53)

Exactly. And discovering that, like the other home that was a lot more expensive also had a lot of renovations that I would have still had to do. And in my past, I've lived through a lot of renovations and the time and money that it takes to complete those renovations. And I'm like, I don't want to move into a house that needs to be renovated again. I've lived that life.

Dave (22:36.021)

Yep. Yeah. So this, kind of talking about the concept of musts, that's really what musts are all about. And you can apply them to almost any decision. So like we talked about your friend who was considering maybe moving jobs. OK, let's just play the tape forward and say, yep, he decided he was going. I don't know if he did or not, but let's decide he's going to go look at jobs.

Ashley (22:43.703)

Yes.

Ashley (22:58.69)

Yes. Yep.

Dave (23:04.577)

And now he's answering ads, talking to people, and all of a sudden he's got two job offers. And it's like, oh my gosh, which one do I choose? Choose best job offer for me. And so he may have must that says I must have a minimum salary of X.

Ashley (23:16.332)

Yes.

Dave (23:22.681)

Or he may have another must that says the commute time from where I live to where I need to report to work has to be less than X. That kind of thing. That would be another possible must. Or it could be I'm not even going to consider an offer where I can't work from home two days a week. That's my minimum. Work from home two days a week. That kind of thing. And so again, the purpose of that is to...

Ashley (23:30.626)

Yeah. Right.

Ashley (23:43.586)

Yep. Yep.

Dave (23:50.777)

set those minimum requirements so that if an alternative comes along that doesn't meet those minimum requirements, you're not even going to look at it, because it's automatically out.

Ashley (23:59.35)

It's automatically out.

It's automatically out. And so like when you say that, I think about the things that we still keep, even though they're out, because we think we might be able to work with it. So then is it not a must? Like then is it automatically a want? Or we're just afraid of eliminating options, because like I'm a maximizer, you know, and I'm not sure.

Dave (24:15.851)

So here.

Dave (24:22.633)

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So here's the question I would ask. Let's go back to the job question. Let's say you've got two offers and one is, you know, they both meet your must for salary or compensation and they both meet your must from location wise. one of them you work from home, the work from home is only one day a week. The other one I can work from home up to three days a week.

Ashley (24:30.125)

Yes.

Dave (24:52.321)

Okay, so technically if my must is working from home two days a week, here's what I'd ask. I'd say to this guy, are the other parts of this job attractive enough where you can bend that must from two days a week to one day a week? Would you still consider it because the other factors are so good? And if the answer was, yeah, I think I would. Then I would say, okay, then guess what? The two days is probably not a must, okay?

Ashley (25:20.558)

you have moved it from the must to being a want. Wow. Okay. Okay.

Dave (25:24.725)

you maybe moved it from a must to being a one, right? Or maybe the must goes from two days a week work from home down to one day a week work from home. But yeah, the concept is back to the title, a must must be a must, okay? In order for something to be a must, it really has to be a firm mandatory minimum.

Ashley (25:32.758)

Okay. Okay.

Ashley (25:38.647)

Right.

Ashley (25:46.76)

non-negotiable whatsoever.

Dave (25:47.489)

Right. And as the important and personal decisions, it's a little trickier because you don't have other stakeholders other than yourself. So with your house decision, the stakeholder is yourself, you. And you might've had some close friends and family that you'd want them to weigh in and give you some input, but at the end of the day, it's your decision. His job decision, same thing. It's probably him and I don't know if he's married or not, but maybe it's his, you know, his family's involved as well, but those are the stakeholders.

When the number of stakeholders increases, then the importance of being crystal clear on the musts is huge. So I'm talking a lot now about work-related decisions.

Ashley (26:25.826)

Right, right.

Right, that's what I was gonna say. This is team thinking now. How do we come to a conclusion and move forward as a team when we have maybe six, seven, eight people that it's going to impact and they wanna weigh in on that decision?

Dave (26:32.225)

Team thinking, yep.

Dave (26:41.919)

Yep, yep. This is several years ago. We worked with a company who had several manufacturing plants in the US and they were closing one of the sites. They were closing the site because a variety of reason was old. It was in need of maintenance. It was in a super high zip code in terms of cost of doing business and all that. So they decided we're going to close this plant and we're going to move the production somewhere else. And so their decision was choose best

place, choose best way to manufacture these products that we used to make here. And now we've got to figure out another way to source them. And so this was a cascaded decision. So we talked about, first of all, build in-house or outsource. That was kind of the first decision. And there were some must and wants around that. And eventually, they decided, no, we want to keep this manufacturing in-house. For a variety of reasons, quality control was the biggest one.

And so now it was choose best location inside of our ecosystem to manufacture this stuff. Well, guess what? This big company, know, a billion dollar, billions of dollar company, and they've got several plants all over the United States. Each plant manager was weighing in. I think my site is ideal for this manufacturing because of this, this and that. And, you know, think of the jobs it would bring to our area and think of how good that would be for us.

AKA me, the plant manager. And so you had all these plant managers lobbying for the increased production and the vice president of the division that oversaw this, he was like, I don't know, we got to come up with a method that makes sense because now you've got people lobbying and you've got a little bit of politicalizing going on for this decision. Yeah.

Ashley (28:12.184)

Right.

Ashley (28:34.466)

Right, how many people or plant managers are we talking about? Is this like 30 or is this like 10?

Dave (28:39.143)

No, no, no, no. No, in that case, there was like five. Yeah, yeah, five different sites. So they called it.

Ashley (28:44.01)

Okay, good to know. Okay. So even five different sites is going to cause a lot of turmoil. Right. Okay.

Dave (28:50.377)

sure. And this was a big money decision. They were going to spend a lot of money whichever way they went. So we met with, they put together a team, a team of about four people that would come up with the recommendations. So remember in rapid, R stands for recommender, A stands for the agreeer, the D stands for the final decision maker, et cetera, et cetera. That was in episode whatever. But so they put together team to come up with the A and they hired us to help that team.

with the decision process. Not that we know anything about what they did, but we know all about how to make good decisions with the analytical process. And so the first thing we did was we sat down with the team and we said, let's talk about criteria. How are we going to base this decision? What's the scorecard going to be? And so we spent, in this case, we spent three or four meetings coming up with a...

a list of criteria because it really had to be the list of criteria. And split them into must and wants. There ended up being about four musts is all. But these musts were really, really important. And they ended up being the non-negotiable mandatory minimum requirements for this decision. Some of it had to do with amount of investment, because there was a capital cost. Some of it had to do with when production could start.

this new production because there was going to be an overlap period where they had to make sure that as soon as this one stopped, this one could start so they wouldn't interrupt their supply chain. And there were a couple other musts in there. So we finally ended up with that list of musts. Everyone agreed to it. And then we took that list to the vice president, who was going to be the final decision maker, him and the board, the executive committee for the company. And we said, here are the musts.

What do you think? Do you agree with them or not? And let's talk through each one. So that was another meeting. We talked through all them and boom, the four musts were the four musts. Okay, now we got the mandatory minimum requirements. So if a plant manager came along or another opportunity came along that didn't meet those musts, the group could say, you know what, sorry, we can't consider it. You don't get to play in this decision because you don't meet the minimum requirements of this decision, requirements that have been approved by all the way up to the top.

Dave (31:11.837)

as musts. Okay, so think of musts this way.

Ashley (31:13.834)

Right, so that particular thing, Dave, doesn't automatically become a want. It becomes eliminated from the option completely, right, because it doesn't meet it. There's no flexibility whatsoever for us to like discuss it at all. Okay.

Dave (31:29.291)

Right, yeah, so let's say you have a plant in XYZ location and it doesn't meet the musts, you are no longer gonna look at that alternative because it doesn't meet the minimum requirements. And another way look at it is that if you go ahead and choose something that doesn't meet your most basic minimum requirements, you're setting yourself up for failure because those musts are so important that you got to live, you have to have them. They're the mandatory requirements. So think of it this way.

Ashley (31:40.814)

Right.

Dave (31:58.897)

musts in decision making help you figure out who gets to play in your decision making competition. Okay, who gets to make it? Who gets to make it to the game? And then the wants help you determine of all those who got made it to the game, made it into the competition, who wins? Okay, so you might have a must.

Ashley (32:10.038)

arena.

Ashley (32:23.254)

Okay.

Dave (32:25.291)

that says, you know what, we must be able to achieve a profit margin of X in this new site, okay? But your want might be highest profit margin possible based on all the economics and everything. And so the wants help you to optimize or maximize your outcome from the decision. Yeah.

Ashley (32:48.43)

I see. Okay, so based upon my house, my must was I needed to be around community who supported and loved me, which was mainly going to be my family in the South that I haven't seen for 15 years. That is my must. My want, yes, in that proximity near my family and my want was as close to downtown as possible.

Dave (33:02.923)

Yep, you needed to be in that proximity,

Dave (33:16.417)

Yeah, so then I would say for your must, I would have to go one step further and say, okay, near your family, you gotta put a measurement on that. What do you mean by near your family? Would that be in Dallas? And no, no, because you're near New Orleans, right? Yeah, so I'd have to say, all right, give me the boundary then, give me the boundary. And then maybe I have to be in these four counties, or it could be something else, but you have to be able to set that. Now, again, for a one person decision,

Ashley (33:27.071)

No!

Right, right.

Okay, okay.

Ashley (33:44.504)

I see.

Dave (33:45.407)

maybe not that important that you're crystal clear on that, but with a decision that involves many, yes, you need to be crystal clear on what the must is, how you're going to measure it, and how you're going to know if something doesn't meet that must or not. Yeah. Yep. Right. Yeah.

Ashley (33:47.726)

Sure. Sure.

Ashley (34:01.294)

Okay, thank you. Yes, not 15 hours away. More like 20 to 30 minutes away. Okay, got it.

Dave (34:07.391)

Yeah, yeah, however you're measuring it. So, yeah, so again, this becomes more important when the stakes rise, the value of the decision gets more important, more people get involved, that kind of thing. And so when we work with organizations and for business decisions, that's our job to make sure they're crystal clear on those musts. And those musts are truly, truly meaningful for the decision and that there's...

Ashley (34:17.656)

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Dave (34:31.797)

There's transparency on what those musts are. So people who are involved in the decision or who are stakeholders in the decision know what those musts are. And then we can move to the wants. And so wants are, like I said, all the other important factors that make the decision as optimal as it can be, the outcome of the decision, not optimal as it can be. So let's take your friend back to your friend who's looking for a new job. If he's weighing...

Ashley (34:47.096)

Yes.

Dave (34:57.705)

job offers, then he might look at some of the other intangibles as wants. Maybe the benefits, the flexibility, the room for opportunity for growth. You know, the culture of the organization from what he can tell the people. Yep.

Ashley (35:11.926)

the people he's working with, gets along with, well, the role that he's doing isn't the same as before. He has more impact in it. Yes, yes.

Dave (35:18.315)

Yep. Yeah, so again, all those could be stated as wants and some of those wants are gonna be more important than others. And so that's part of the process also is attaching values to those wants. And so now what you've done, once you figured out your must and wants, you set up a scorecard that you can measure each of the alternatives against one another in a uniform, unbiased, objective way.

And that's the job of this process is to be able to do that.

Ashley (35:47.425)

Mmm.

Ashley (35:51.35)

Right, so we've taken the pros and cons list and all these things that we desire in our life. Here's a pro against it, here's a pro for it, here's a con against it. And you've separated in the must, like these are the minimal non-negotiable. And then you're taking everything else that you think that you want and you are scoring it and weighting it. Like, what do you mean by that? Like, let's break that down.

Dave (36:14.443)

Yeah, so the wants list, and again, most decisions have a few musts, two, three, four musts. They don't have a list of 30 musts, okay? Most decisions have a small list of musts and a slightly larger list of wants. I try to keep the wants list less than 10, and ultimately, if I can get it down to like five, six, or seven wants, that's great.

Ashley (36:26.126)

Okay?

Dave (36:42.109)

And so, yeah, so just like musts are all mandatory and minimum requirements, wants are of different importance, right? So in the job decision, this person might say, you know, the thing that's most important for me is opportunity for growth. And it's not a must, but it's really, really, really important. And so if I find an alternative that gives me that opportunity,

much more than another one, I am going to give that alternative a lot more credit. Okay, I'm going to give that alternative a lot more weight in my final decision than I would the other one. In fact, I actually helped another guy that I went to college with who I reconnected with a few years ago, his daughter worked for a consulting company and she was weighing a decision from one of the big three, I think it was something like that.

and I kind of came out of nowhere and she was like, oh my gosh, should I stay in my job or not? And one of her biggest factors was opportunity for growth. And she's young, single, she could travel. This organization gave her an amazing opportunity to propel her career. It meant travel, it meant changing jobs probably every two to three years. And she was like, yeah, let's do it, let's go for it. So that was two, two and a half years ago and she's loving it. She's absolutely.

Ashley (38:07.778)

Yes! Yes!

Dave (38:08.159)

because she found the opportunity that matched up not only with her must, but what her true wants were. Yeah.

Ashley (38:13.768)

Ooh, her true like higher priority wants. So we are prioritizing the wants in a way that makes sense that we can analytically see everything in black and white, right? Like these are things that are, that's in our decision analysis course, right?

Dave (38:22.901)

Yes. Yeah.

Dave (38:28.957)

Yes, so we have one of our Decision Focus courses is called Decision Analysis and the kind of the process we've been describing is the process that gets learned in detail in that course. We do both do those in online, know, self-paced online courses and then live workshops that we actually go in and work with a team or work with an organization and hopefully they've got some big-time decisions that they're wrestling with and we can help them through those decisions and teach in the process at the same time.

Ashley (38:35.438)

Okay?

Dave (38:58.805)

Yeah, so, yeah, so that's kind of what that's all about. But this whole simple concept of musts and wants, what I love about it, and we've been doing it forever, is that you can apply this simple principle to the most basic decision or the most complex decision that you ever could see. And it's just a matter of how deep you get into it in terms of the application. So a simple decision might be, hey, I'm looking for a new e-bike.

And I want to make sure I get the right one for me. So I may have a must and a couple of wants. And there you go. And bang, I've looked at two or three and I bought my new e-bike and I'm a happy camper. OK. You probably won't commit that process to a worksheet, but mentally you're probably thinking through that,

Ashley (39:45.454)

Choose best place for Taco Tuesday. The musts, they must have tacos. The wants, a really great margarita.

Dave (39:49.569)

Must have tacos, right. Exactly, so that's what, yeah, so you're thinking about that. And again, the stakes, low stakes, so if I get it wrong, not a biggie, not a biggie. But now let me, I'll flip over to the other end of it, because this happened, this has happened quite a fair number of years ago, but we were asked to help an organization who was a supplier to Boeing.

Ashley (39:59.982)

Very low.

Dave (40:19.327)

the aviation company, they were introducing a new line of jumbo jets. And this company was responsible to build the aviation system for this new line of jumbo jets for Boeing. And so the options were crazy. It was like, okay, take the current aviation system in the prior generation and upgrade it. Or...

take the current situation aviation system and apply, jump the technology to generations and apply this next, you know, way over here, generation. The third option was scrap it all and build a new one from scratch. A fourth one was, you know, Jerry, rig a little from this one, a little from that one, that, that, that, that, that. Well, this decision was hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. And the company that we are working for had to approve it at the board level.

because the capital investment was hundreds of millions of dollars and Boeing had to approve it because it was their airplanes it was going into. And so the guy that was responsible for creating this decision called me and said, well, decision analysis work for this decision. And so we talked a lot during a couple of phone calls. And finally I said, I think, but this is going to be literally a mountain of work.

because it was so complex, so detailed, so many permutations. And he said, well, we're up for it. And so over this course of about four months, we would give their teams assignments. The first couple of meetings were strictly about musts and wants. And that was amazingly complex, figuring out musts and wants for this big, big, big time decision. And so there was at least

Ashley (41:52.142)

Yup.

Dave (42:13.387)

two all-day sessions and then homework in between and then a third session to kind of put it all together. Yes.

Ashley (42:21.262)

How many people are involved in these all day sessions for this highly complex decision of just deciding must and wants?

Dave (42:26.881)

This group was about 15 and they represented all different parts of the organization. And then they had some people behind them that represented their specialty areas. And so it was, that was, I got through like the second meeting and I came home and I'm like, I don't know if we can get this done because it is so complex. There are so many permutations and hybrid kind of.

Ashley (42:31.65)

Okay?

Ashley (42:35.264)

Okay.

Dave (42:55.701)

you know, options that to create one list of musts and wants that can handle all of those, you know, different scenarios was like, your mind was just kind of going. So, but we systematically, we kind of systematically hammered through it. And by the end of that last meeting, we had a list of about, and my memory is a little foggy now because it was many years ago, but probably seven musts.

Ashley (43:24.75)

Okay?

Dave (43:25.433)

and a list of maybe 16 wants, something like that. It wasn't a giant list because we tried to boil it down to its most, I won't say simple level, but its most effective level. So we got all done with that. And then the last thing, I still remember this senior VP, he went around the table and he said, okay, before I take this to our senior management, our board, I need a verbal. Remember if you get it, sit in an exit row seat, the...

Ashley (43:31.086)

Yeah.

Dave (43:53.131)

flight attendant comes by and says, I need a verbal if you're willing and able. Well, this guy did the same thing. He went around the table, 15 people, I need a verbal from each of you that you support this must and want list. And if you don't, that's great, but we got to have a uniform yes before we take this upstairs. And so he went around the table, person number one, yes, I support, person number two, and all 15 said yes to it. And this guy's name is Joel, the senior EP. So he took...

Ashley (43:56.195)

Yep.

Dave (44:22.367)

He said, all right, great. So he took that must and want list up to the CEO and the executive committee and they rubber stamped it and said, yep, we agree. There was a long meeting, but they got through it. And then that ended part one. And then part two was, okay, now that we know what the must and wants are, let's have super good clarity on each one of these options, what it means, what it looks like and what the ramifications are.

And then we will compare each one of these options against one another on every one of those musts and wants. And so that process took a couple of months. So end to end, this thing was, I don't know, five months long, something like that. But at the end of the day, they had their final choice, their best choice. Same thing, everyone agreed with it. Their executive team agreed with it. They took it to Boeing and Boeing said yes and off they went.

Ashley (44:57.204)

Okay. God!

Ashley (45:18.966)

What?

Dave (45:19.455)

Yeah. And so it turned out to be a really, really cool success. And Boeing, that aviation system served them very well for many, a couple of different generations of jets. And I think they've recently maybe retired it because the technology's now, you know, moved on. But, you know, the amazing part of all that was that we have this simple concept of musts and wants, alternatives clearly laid out, a clear decision statement.

Ashley (45:45.582)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (45:48.929)

Clarity on must and wants, how we're going to measure them, how we're going to know what's good, what's better, what's best. And then comparing the alternatives against that list to come up with a best choice or at least a best recommended choice. Now there's one other part to this whole analysis. So if you take the training or go to the online course, you'll see then there's the risk assessment part of it. The question of what can go wrong if we go with this direction versus that direction.

Ashley (45:49.582)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (46:16.987)

And that's all about looking at the negative downside that we may not have considered in the decision process. So, yeah.

Ashley (46:24.782)

So you've depicted this process of the important people coming together and taking the time to weigh everything out effectively so that we all are in unison on it and we have prioritized everything effectively and we have done this to ensure the success of the decision, right?

Dave (46:48.307)

Right, yep, yeah. Yeah, and again, it all depends on how important the decision is, how much money you're throwing around, who's involved, what the downside is, because if it's a type one decision that you can pivot from, well, then you're not gonna spend that much time getting formal, but you're still probably going to think through the ideas of musts and wants and looking at options and so forth and have that in your head as you're comparing things.

Ashley (46:56.462)

Okay. Yep. Yep.

Dave (47:17.897)

Yeah, so yeah, yeah, I know. It's worth it to get it right.

Ashley (47:19.5)

Whew! A lot of work. Worth it though! It's worth it to get it right! And if we don't get it right, what do do?

Dave (47:28.265)

Yeah, well then again, then you hit the rewind button or you start over or whatever. I tell the story. So we've lived in this house here for now 30 some years, but 30 years ago, this is the house that the infamous remodel house. But 30 years ago, when we were looking for a new home, since we both worked in this business together, we're like, okay, let's get our must and what list out. so Mary's first must was must have minimum five acres.

minimum five acres, because she has horses and so her idea was one day I want to be able to look out in the back and see my horses. And I'm like, yeah, but in January when it's 27 below out and the water lines freeze to the barn, who's got a schlep out there in his sorrel boots, you know, and try to make it work. I'm like, yeah, yeah, no. My must is

Ashley (48:05.614)

cute.

Ashley (48:11.81)

Veto!

Dave (48:28.445)

Max one acre.

Ashley (48:29.966)

That is the infamous Midwestern yeah-yeah-no that we have come to love.

Dave (48:36.193)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, max one acre. Okay, well then, you know, so we were kind of at an impasse. So it was dumb for us to be looking at homes because we couldn't agree on the most basic must of size. And there were some other criteria in there too as well. so, but it was kind of funny. We would, you know, like on Sunday after church, we'd go out and drive around and we'd see these open houses. Hey, let's go in there.

We'd go and she'd go, wow, this is great, 10 acres. And I'm like, wow, this is terrible, 10 acres. And so we'd get nowhere. So finally one day we sat down and we hammered it out. And one of her other musts was, you know, must have a facility to put my horses in, a pole barn or something like that. So we're talking kind of semi-rural now. And...

Ashley (49:28.236)

Okay, wait, wait, so she has eliminated, must have five acres as a must, must have horses on the property as a must.

Dave (49:33.641)

No, no, no, that was, no, no, that was her second must.

I know. So.

Ashley (49:42.574)

So when you're talking storage facility, are the horses going to be living there now or she's talked out of it because Daddy Dave is not taking care of that stuff.

Dave (49:50.483)

No, well, I don't know. That was future tense at that point, right? So finally, we hammered it out, and we decided on this. Minimum five acres. I said yes to that. But instead of having the facilities, horses, horse facilities, we changed that to potential for having horse facilities on the property. that.

We didn't necessarily have to have something right there, but we had to have something that if we chose to build a barn and this kind of stuff in the future, we could do it. And so, yeah.

Ashley (50:25.1)

I love that. my gosh, just that key word, potential for, is a great way to remove the impasse, right? Because you don't have to make the decision now, but we have to have that option maybe open for later. I love it.

Dave (50:40.575)

Yeah. So, so that then still meant, okay, we're going to be in kind of this semi rural area because even if you could find five acres near town, most of the zoning would prohibit horses. And so, so this would say, no, we got to be kind of out a little ways. so that kind of got us into, you know, kind of this semi rural, semi suburban kind of part of town. And, and when we, we had other musts, had money musts and, you know, size must and some stuff.

But one day we saw an open house sign out here and where we are now. And we said, that's interesting. Let's go look. So we looked around and 5.6 acres. Okay. Just got past the must. No barn, but the community that we're in has lots of hobby farms and horse facilities. it was, you know, the potential was there. The house was pretty new. It was only like three years old.

were being relocated and it met our price criteria and it was available right now because the people had already moved. And so it was like, oh, this could be it. So we went home and we looked at everything and we took out our little worksheet and looked at it and said, yeah, this is good. I think we should, let's give it a shot. Now the only part of this house that wasn't on our list is that it had a swimming pool in it.

Ashley (52:10.638)

Eww, you either love it or hate it.

Dave (52:11.769)

and either love it or hate it. And at that time we were like, okay, well, what can go wrong? Well, we could get in here and decide we hate the swimming pool. But on the other hand, we were young, even though we didn't have kids, all of our friends had kids, nieces and nephews. We thought this could be the place where everyone hangs out. This could be really good. So we said, let's do it, let's go for it. So we went for it and they accepted our, we did a little.

negotiating and we came to an agreement and that's where we've been for the last 32 years. Last 33 years. Yeah. So, two points there. Number one, if you don't agree on musts and there's more than one stakeholder, then it's foolish to be looking at alternatives, right? Because you don't agree on your minimum requirements. So, if one just...

Ashley (52:46.008)

I it. I love it.

Ashley (53:00.494)

you

Ashley (53:04.024)

Right, so you're just spinning your tires. You're just wasting your time because you don't agree to begin with.

Dave (53:10.153)

Yeah, yeah, so that's principle number one. And then principle number two is once you're clear on those things, the decision-making process gets a lot easier, a lot faster because you've got that scorecard to measure stuff against. And so you don't have to be wondering, you don't have to be going, well, here's five pros and two cons and here's seven pros and six cons. You know, you just know. And so it really makes then the buy-in process

Ashley (53:23.363)

Right.

Dave (53:39.483)

so much more easy. And again, these are scenarios where there's lots of people involved. So back to those work decisions, if we have a team that's crystal clear in their must and wants, and we have the people that are the deciders that have agreed on those must and wants, and the team has done a good job of evaluating and doing the comparisons, by the time they get to best choice, the buy-in factor is huge because they've had all these minor buy-ins, buy-ins of the must, buy-ins of the wants, buy-ins of the weights.

Ashley (54:06.914)

Yes! Yes!

Dave (54:09.001)

And so that final yes or go decision becomes a lot easier because every decision that's led up to it, there's been congruency there. So it's really a fun process to be able to help people with.

Ashley (54:18.926)

You've depicted the importance of moving forward with clarity rather than moving forward through mud because that's going to impact your life. It's going to impact your work. It's going to impact that final decision and make everything worse if you are not crystal clear. Yes.

Dave (54:27.734)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (54:40.395)

Crystal clear, so there you go. So that's thing number five, are the five things you would need to know that you might not have known about making really, really good decisions. And if this has piqued your curiosity, there's two ways to learn more. Number one, our ebook, right? So what's that all about? Yeah, five things.

Ashley (54:44.973)

Yes!

Ashley (55:00.078)

Five things you need to know about decision making. So yes, we've covered a few podcasts over these five things. And if you want to dive a little bit deeper, but not kill yourself, it's a quick 20 minute read. And it's at our website at www.focustools.com /5things

Dave (55:18.901)

Yes, so that's the first thing. And then if you want to dive deeper, you can go online and grab one of our decision-making courses. And the current course right now is called Decision Analysis. And then we're going to be authoring a new course called Mastering Decisions, which goes a little deeper, maybe a little bit more on the full spectrum of decision-making, work, home, and other, that kind of thing. But those are our online courses.

Ashley (55:24.267)

even deeper.

Dave (55:49.073)

And then we also do workshops,

Ashley (55:53.698)

Yes, I love these workshops because you get everybody together either virtually or in person and we walk you through this decision making process, whether it's a major decision, major, whether it's a crazy messy situation or whether we are trying to prevent problems in the future. There's a few different opportunities for team leaders to take their teams through these workshops.

Dave (56:15.251)

Yep. And we just started something special here for the next little while that, a special offer that says, you enroll in one of these, we're going to offer you free coaching. So, to help you, let's say you're wrestling with a big decision and you've taken the online course and you go, okay, I still want to run this past somebody. you and I are there to help them coach them live. Okay. Whether it's on a zoom call or whether we do something. Yeah.

Ashley (56:42.062)

A live body. Yes.

Dave (56:44.789)

with that particular decision at no extra charge. So that's our little incentive to check out the courses and see what you think. Definitely. Yeah.

Ashley (56:51.874)

Yes, yes, so please check them out. That's at www.focustools.com/decisionfocus. And we'll also put those links in the show notes for you if you want to learn.

Dave (56:59.563)

We'll put those links in the show notes. There you go. Whoa, that's five things. That's, that's, what is that? That's the first series. Now the second series.

Ashley (57:02.651)

Thanks, Dave!

Ashley (57:08.052)

That's... Yes! Tell us about the second series, Dave! What are we calling the second series?

Dave (57:13.537)

The second series, we're going to be talking to three individuals who represent decision-making and leadership and team, kind of a team orientation at the highest levels. And one is going to represent Corporate America, our friend Tim, who managed an organization of over 10,000 people. And here, his story, which is amazing. We're also going to explore the nonprofit world.

And that's our friend Josh, who's the CEO of Big and Getting Bigger Nonprofit, nationwide nonprofit, and how that environment, how decision-making and relationships and everything work in that environment. And then the third person we're gonna talk to is gonna represent the world of entrepreneurship, the world of creating, building, fixing, buying, selling businesses. And that's our friend Frank, and he's gonna talk about

Ashley (58:07.736)

Woof! That's enough.

Dave (58:11.231)

you know, how decisions get made in that realm. And you're going to find some things that are way different in each one of those environments, but you're also going to find some things that are pretty much the same in each of those environments. So that's going to be kind of the next area that we explore in upcoming episodes.

Ashley (58:29.614)

Awesome. Well, if you're not excited, you are not invited.

Dave (58:32.353)

And you have you have a taco Tuesday today, right?

Ashley (58:38.722)

I do have a Taco Tuesday. Do you have a joke for us today that we could end with, with all you know about the stuff you know?

Dave (58:44.189)

Well, it's not a joke, it's kind of a sad story. I got home yesterday and walked in and saw my wife slightly drunk.

Ashley (58:47.822)

Okay.

Ashley (58:57.454)

Is this from the three wines you had her sampling?

Dave (58:58.369)

This yeah, this is slightly drunk and she's looking at the TV and she's yelling at it She's yelling don't go in there. Don't go in that church you moron It turns out she was watching our wedding video again

Ashley (59:05.751)

Okay.

Dave (59:17.771)

Ha ha ha ha ha

Ashley (59:20.43)

I don't even know how to segue that, Dave. I don't even know, but I know you've been in that house over 30 years, so it must have been a great wedding.

Dave (59:33.985)

So there it is, kinda sad, but what are you gonna do?

Ashley (59:38.296)

Don't go in the church, you moron. But tune in to the next podcast for everyone else. You're not morons. We love you. We appreciate you. Have a wonderful, wonderful rest of your day.

Dave (59:48.659)

Until we see you again.